2011 Spring Derby prize structure

[Deleted]

The silence is deafing ?? It is what it is I guess !

[rm]

Anyone from the derby committee a member of this site?

I mean we were asked for our input before the last meeting and many of us gave it there and here afterwards as well. It would be nice to know what the committee's thoughts and plans are or do we just wait for the poster???

[Dan Andrews]

Just talked to Jay Pusique who said he wants to respond but both his and Paul's computer got hit with a virus. Gerry (Nittro) didn't attend the last meeting and the others are computer illiterates. Jay will report on their direction at the January meeting and here ASAP.

I have another derby prize structure for you to ponder. Any ideas are good ideas if they incite feedback or even lead to another idea.

There are two reasons the derby must change. One is participation and the other is conservation. Addressing the conservation gave me the following idea.

Ever heard of a silent auction. You don't know what anyone else has bid and you place just one bid yourself. Well take that idea and apply it to the trout categories. Everyone is allowed to enter one trout over 10 pounds but one trout only. No leader board. The suspense will kill you right? Gee I wonder if any browns were even entered or will this 12 pounder win? Winner gets announced at the awards dinner only so even the losers will want to attend.

This is no different then a one day bass tournament only it runs the course of a full derby. You would have a hard time weighing in a 16# bow with a whole month left to catch something bigger and as the derby's days dwindled the rush to get a worthy fish for entering would increase. This in my eyes would be more exciting to new anglers then a bigger prize. A bigger prize just means better competition which might deter the novice angler from ever entering a derby. Face it Dan Andrews doesn't waste his money to compete against Mr Hill. Also it would make those one day anglers fishing a one day charter more likely to throw in a few more bucks if they know the retired guy cant see what weight he has to beat over the next couple weeks. Nothing makes a charter more exciting then the idea you might come away with a decent prize afterwards.

I'm sure there are pros and cons so lets here em. The derby committee will report ASAP just remember most don't E-surf and the others are trying.

[LiveWire]

While I can appreciate and respect your "Conservation Attitude" Dan, this is a Salmon Derby. The whole concept of the Salmon stocking program from the start 30 plus years ago was to provide a put and take fishery for people to enjoy and utilize. While other species like bass can be caught and released in fishing derbies/tournaments, this is just not the case for salmon and trout.
If the concern of the Game and Fish is of the same opinion that the derby must change then a move must be made away from the minimal opportunities it currently provides in the current prize structure.

Instead for paying out a large sum to one prize, spreading it out into more spots is the way to attract more anglers, more ticket sales, more ramp passes, its a win for the club as well as the anglers.

Only one brown trout was weighed in..so we should eliminate the category? This makes no sense. Really who cares if there were no browns weighed in? What should that matter? I could respect the decision to eliminate spots in the categories if the derby was already too top heavy, but it is not, and the club and its members have expressed a desire to improve both the derby and its participation.

Reduce the eligibility to one fish per category per angler, shorten the duration of the derby to 5 weeks, pay 10 spots down on the chinook category, maintain the brown, laker, and rainbow categories as is, in order to provide opportunities for shore anglers.

[Rigger]

I do agree that changes need to be made to benefit the Club via the Spring Derby. Participation does need to be increased. I just can't see a Salmon only Derby increasing membership. Even if it does increase sales of Derby tickets, I believe it will be at the cost of the shore fishermen which is usually your younger generation. If you take away the youth and don't allow them to enter the Spring Derby, you also take away your future.

There is not a problem with conservation in the Derby. There are only 1 to 3 brown trout weighed in at max. In the rainbow category, you might have 10 fish weighed in. There is a slight problem in the lake trout category and this can be addressed by increasing the minimum weight up to at least 16lbs and probably 18lbs+. The average weight of the lake trout has increased each year. The days of a 16lb laker taking a prize in the spring derby is long gone. These fish have increased their weight by almost one lb a year. The only waste of fish is in Salmon. Fish are being weighed in each week when you are trying for the big fish of the week which is always a salmon. Some ideas in this area need to be lightly discussed. The leader board for this prize needs to be updated a little more frequently to help this.

Eventually the derby will pick up. Advertising with posters in fishing stores and bait shops is free. These just need to put a little earlier to reach a few more people. Word of mouth and the INTERNET fishing websites is a bonus to the Club.

The idea of a secret weight will take away any thoughts of an actual derby going on. It will create a conservation problem. The only way this idea could possibly happen is if there was an extra prize awarded just for a secret weight. I would argue that this award in any category will create a problem and not benefit the Club or the Derby.

To increase membership, besides keeping the youth involved, you will still need to entertain the thought of increasing the 1st place prize in any category. I remember when the 1st place prize was a $1,000 and meeting a lot of people from New York state that come here for a vacation and the derby. This will still benefit the charters and at the same time benefit the club. There is a limited set amount of money in the derby that does need to be distributed a little differently. The difference was $100 in the lower categories. Possible make the difference a little more pronounced with the lower or additional prizes being smaller. It would be nice if a local restaurant offered a dinner for two or even for the Casino to offer a dinner for two. I am sure this could be a future sponsor. Another possible way to distribute this prize money is to combine the rainbow and brown trout together. If this was done this year, the prize amount just in that category would of been distributed in other categories to allow for a higher award to 1st place and possibly more awards in other categories. The idea of increasing the cost of membership, derby tickets, launch fees and other variables should be conversed to see if this would be a benefit to the Club.

If this becomes a charter/boat only derby, I will obviously still enter but I feel it will be a sad day for the youth and the future of the Club.

The draws of unclaimed prizes must be addressed and an amicable solution found. The combination rainbow/brown category would certainly be a plus here eliminating the unclaimed brown trout prizes.

I am still undecided about only one prize per category. I can understand only winning one top prize but don't understand winning more than one small prize.

Shortening of the derby leads to less ramp fees collected and less people that can enter due to restricted vacation time and recreational time. The longer the derby is, the greater the amount of time allowed for possible entrants, launch fees and other possible benefits.

I still don't understand keeping the brown trout as one category when basically a brown and a rainbow weigh in evenly as a derby would consider and very few if any browns are weighed in. We are not fishing the lower Lake Ontario where a lot of browns are targeted. If and when the membership in New York state increases, then this is the time when browns need to be discussed to become a separate category.

If the club does not increase the 1st place winners prize in all categories, this will decrease membership.
If the club does not allow for more awards in any one category, this will decrease membership.
If the club deletes the shore fishermen, this will decrease membership at the cost of the future.

Nite all, Rigger!

[rm]

Just a thought on increasing membership and derby ticket sales has anyone ever tried to get a small booth donated at the Spring fishing show in Feb.?

If the prize structure was finallized and verified by then with the posters, etc., printed I'd think that the expossure of being at the show might help a lot as a lot of Lake O trollers attend.

[LiveWire]

If there is a concern that the Spring Derby is or will become a Boat/Charter Derby...running the derby for the current duration will accomplish that.

For many years the derby was run for 5 weeks. Every week there was a category dedicated to each species. In no particular order, Chinook, Coho, Rainbow Trout, Brown Trout, and Lake Trout. During each particular week a prize was awarded for the largest of that species and a bonus to the regular payout slots.

Running the derby too long into the summer transition pretty much ruins any chance for the shore fishermen to have a chance at a river rainbow that has been caught in the river or pier to hold up until the end, hence the reluctance of many river angler to buy a derby ticket as their chances and efforts get squashed towards the end of the derby.

The same can be said for the Chinook category. Run the derby throughout he months of April and May, with fish weighed in from the local area, only to be eliminated at the beginning of the North Shore migration at ports 50 miles away from the origin of the club.

This derby holds the title of The Catharines Game and Fish Spring Derby...Not Spring and early summer derby. We have a members derby that covers the summer time frame. I know there are a few who just want the Spring Derby to run for an extended period of time, because they do not like to fish unless there is a derby in play...And quite frankly.. I would be willing to pay the same amount for a members derby ticket separate from a 5 week Spring Derby, there is another idea for the Derby Committee to think about.

[Rigger]

Good point there Jason. Running the derby too long does create a concern. It is very close though for a finishing time but should be shortened. This year, the length of the derby allowed for the last 10 days for the Rainbows to pool in that one area in the lake and for the boat fishermen to catch them. After that is was a free-for-all and double digit days were common. The fish in the river were active to the middle of May(mild winter). North shore rainbows started the 1st week of June out front of Bronte. The previous year, rainbows were active in the river to the end of May and readily available to the boats only in the last week of the derby(med winter). It depends on how hard Lake Erie gets hit by winter. When and how fast the ice clears up dictates the spring fishing on the south shore and then the north shore. The longer the spring derby continues into June certainly does create a whole new ball game on both shores.

The Salmon on the north shore were very active until the 3rd week of July with double digit days common there. Fishing also starts there in the month of June or when our water hits about 60 degrees on the South shore.

I do agree that the Spring derby should be shortened by at least one week to start with. This will level the playing field and then decide from there whether to shorten it any further. The Summer derby can start earlier in June at the end of the Spring derby. "8" weeks is way too long for a Spring derby and running it into the 12 days of June just creates more problems. The derby could start earlier to accommodate the shore anglers. Most years the run is in on the 2nd week of April. Starts slow at 39 degrees and is in full bloom when it hits 43 degrees.

Good point about the Starting and Finishing dates!

[Deleted]

;D ;D ;D ;D YES you finally get the point ! It is time to adjust the STCGF derby to make it work for our club and its members !

[Dan Andrews]

Jason salmon were not stocked "to provide a put and take fishery for people to enjoy and utilize". Salmon were stocked to address runaway invasive bait populations. Yes a sport fishery was inevitable and a charter industry brings a whack of money and is dependent on the stocking.

Brown trout (lake run) are not part of the conservation perspective. They are a "put, grow, take" fish which were provided for the reasons you mentioned for salmon. I recently verified this information with the Lake Ontario Management Unit.

I like your idea about a separate derby for the members. Perhaps those not receiving a payout for the spring derby will then buy a membership and help support the club.

As for bigger prizes and the old hay day the club lost 6G on last years derby. Yes just think of what we could have done for the area if we didn't have to take that from other programs. What programs you ask? Yes that's exactly what non salmon and trout anglers ask all the time. The derby needs to be self supporting like the 50/50. If tickets don't sell we shouldn't be paying out. Payouts should be based on a minimum number of ticket sales.

I also like the idea of hiking the lake trout weight way up. If any fish should be restricted to one entry only it is the rainbow as this has been identified for lake agencies as a concern. Might be why the US is dropping limits way down.

[Deleted]

The American limits have been down for years we should join them . And you are right the derby should be self sustaining pay out smaller prizes pay more spots down. A side note most local anglers don't kill a lot of fish a few for the smoker seems to be the rule. Thanks for your impute fellows I wish more would join in . Derby Committee ? Regards stormin.

[LiveWire]

Yes Dan I am aware that the Salmon were utilized to control the invasive smelt and alewife populations back in the day. The stakeholders at the time chose to repeat the same economic stimulus that was achieved in Michigan. The Great Lakes Sport Fishery. The monies generated to run the stocking programs had a main focus on the economic advantages of a put and take fishery generating revenue, while at the same time, reaping the benefit controlling an invasive species (smelt and alewife). The didnt just grow the salmon to save on the cost of running bulldozers down the beaches. Only in recent years has there been some attention been to the possibility of natural reproduction of salmonids, and I use the term possibility as I still dont personally buy into the idea. (But that topic is another thread, lets stick to the topic at hand)
The bait to stocked fish ratio has been constantly monitored with concern focused on depletion of the bait source for at least the last 20 years..why? because the Great Lakes fishery as we know it is a put and take fishery that we utilize for economic purposes. Some areas more than others, and most Canadian locations in Lake Ontario, mostly due to our economic and social structure do not focus on that. The Americans in the East have a better appreciation of that with their social structure.

Now back to the derby....

6 Grand? My point exactly
Make the derby accessible and make it an interest to more anglers, do this by having more chances for more anglers to win some prizes and the spinoffs will put money in the bank for the derby and club.

In the last few years the direction of the derby has been...run it longer..How is that workn for ya?
Larger payout for first place..Hows that workin for ya?
Payouts reduced from 10 per category to 5 or 6..Hows that workin for ya?

Reduced entries, reduced interest in the derby, reduced membership support.
Many are asking for a change to the current structure. Hope it happens.
CF OUT

[LiveWire]

Forgot another important point.

Only one fish per category gives many anglers a hope for being in contention. If an angler catches a bigger fish than the one he has on the board, the bigger fish counts and the smaller one is removed. I think that is fair.

[Rigger]

6 Grand $$$. My thinking is that this is only calculated with the sales of the derby tickets. In a perfect world you pay out a percentage of the tickets sales and hope to break out even. This is definitely not perfect. If you charge admission, which you do in Season and daily ramp passes, and calculate a percentage of this in the derby then the loss is not that great.

I do know that when the 1st place prize was increased in the Salmon division at the cost of the Rainbow, Laker and Brown trout category that a lot of shore people stopped entering the derby. It already became a Salmon only derby. Many of my friends from Brantford and the people from out of town that I use to meet on shore during the derby no longer enter.

Would be nice that membership and entrants increased but with the price of electricity now more than doubled, this is gonna be a tough nut to crack. Gas is going up and I am sure that we are going deeper into a recession here. T'is tough to raise that entry fee and tough to charge more money for accessibility to the waterfront. Just would hate to see it become a commercial business.

Good Luck Derby Committee, Rigger!

[Deleted]

Ramp fee moneys should be used for capital expenditures { club house renovations and such } not to subsidize a derby ! If the derby cannot stand alone let it die . Price increases are a fact of life to-day . I spent 40 plus years in business and had to adapt to changing conditions to make a go of it . Moderate price increases along with added value will not deter participation in this event . Change or die. I would like to see the Derby committee chime in here its almost like they don't exist !